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Guests on this program were:
Al Franken
Holland Taylor
Marjorie Strayer
Jeff "Skunk" Baxter
Bill: All right, thank you.
Let's meet our panel.
He is a former member of Steely Dan and guitarist for the Doobie Brothers
who advises Congress on issues of national security --
I'm not kidding --
Jeff "Skunk" Baxter.
Jeff.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Quite a resume.
Jeff: Thank you, sir.
She is a lobbyist for nonprofit organizations and the former chief of
staff of Republican Congresswoman Heather Wilson of New Mexico, Marjorie
Strayer.
Marjorie.
[ Applause ]
Marjorie: Good to see you again.
Bill: Good to see you.
She won an Emmy for her work on "The Practice." And her upcoming
films are "Legally Blonde" and "Happy Accidents,"
opening later this summer, Holland Taylor.
[ Cheers and applause ]
That's right.
Hello, lady.
How are you doing?
[ Talking over each other ]
That's okay, I love her.
He's a comedian, actor and professional stick in the eye of conservatives
everywhere.
He'll be performing at Joe's Pub in New York, part of the Toyota Comedy
Festival.
The most --
June 8th --
the most requested guest on our show, Al Franken, ladies and gentlemen.
[ Cheers and applause ]
And for good reason.
Al: Put it there.
Bill: All right, now, Jeff, my resume that I read for you is not
wrong, right? You --
we know you that you're a part of these rock groups.
And now you're advising the highest leaders of our land about our most
sensitive defense systems.
Jeff: I don't know about the highest leaders, but they are the
leaders of the land.
[ Light laughter ]
Al: --
He was pretty high, right?
Jeff: No.
Al: I mean he's a congressmen at --
did a lot of acid.
Jeff: Oh, yes.
I'm just making fun here for --
Bill: Well, Al Gore did a lot of acid.
Jeff: Yeah.
Bill: Anyway, different subject.
[ Light laughter ]
Okay.
So let's talk about this missile defense system, which is what they're
proposing to spend a lot of your billions of tax dollars on.
And it's called SDI --
that's the official name.
We use to call it "Star Wars," because it doesn't even work
in the movies.
[ Laughter ]
I think that's the important part to mention --
is that for 50 years, we're able to deter nuclear attack, because we use
the kind of "farmer's daughter" approach --
if you get our daughter pregnant, we'll kill you.
[ Light laughter ]
Now Bush is saying, we have a diaphragm that --
[ Laughter ]
--
That might stop all incoming sperm.
Except it's never worked, all the sperm seem to get in.
Holland: And it costs all the money in the world.
Bill: Right.
It's a very expensive diaphragm.
Why are we switching from the "We'll kill you if you get our daughter
pregnant" approach to the "magic diaphragm" approach.
Marjorie: The problem is, if we get hit by the missile, we're
not going to be able to kill them, per se.
So why not invest some money in a --
to use your analogy --
a diaphragm or a missile defense system.
Jeff: Bill, it's real simple.
The bad guys aren't afraid anymore.
Yes, if somebody gets your daughter pregnant, but it's 9,000 biker guys
who don't care what you say.
[ Light laughter ]
The problem is --
I'll give you an example.
When the Chinese were launching missiles into the Taiwan Strait during
the 1996 presidential election in Taiwan, somebody said to the Chinese
generals, "What about the United States? Aren't you afraid of the
United States." And he said, "I don't think the United States
is willing to jeopardize the welfare of Los Angeles to protect Taiwan."
Obviously we got them shaking in their boots now, you know.
Bill: Right.
Should we be for Taiwan? We're talking about us, right?
Jeff: But they were threatening Los Angeles with a nuclear missile.
Al: Who am I to disagree with Skunk?
[ Laughter ]
Jeff: That's right, Al.
He's absolutely right.
Al: I don't have the technical expertise that Skunk has.
[ Light laughter ]
We are --
we're a country who couldn't put a teacher into space.
I mean --
[ Audience groans ]
Marjorie: But we did put a man on the moon.
And that was a program that was criticized in the early '60s as they were
developing it, because it didn't work.
And constantly in science, things don't work.
Does that mean we just give up? How long have we been researching a cure
for cancer? And it hasn't worked yet.
So we just give up or --
Holland: I heard Jeff talking about this system offstage.
And he's very persuasive.
And he actually persuaded me to think that it could be made to work.
But with all the wealth that the entire globe can provide to make a system
work that basically, if you think about attack as well as defense --
if we want it to work --
we're basically building a system which, if it is ever used, is the end
of everything.
Jeff: No, that's not true.
Because we're talking, and Bill's point was well taken, we're talking
about one, two, five or six missiles.
We're talking about a group of people who --
I'll tell ya, when you walk into a --
when you walk into a Cambodian village, and you see stacks of skulls on
both sides of that village, the people who did that don't really care
what the consequences are.
Bill: See, that's wrong.
That is such a mis --
Jeff: It's true.
Bill: That is not true.
Dictators do care very much about staying in power.
There's a reason why Saddam Hussein hasn't attacked us.
He doesn't want to die.
And he knows if he got us pregnant, he would.
Jeff: Depends.
[ Laughter ]
What he wants to do --
[ Applause ]
No, no, that's just not true.
Bill: It is true.
Jeff: That's assuming that his number one thing is to stay in
power in Iraq.
What he would do is he would launch an attack against the United States,
go to a hot tub with Moammar Gadhafi and have struck the great blow against
state and be the hero of the muslim world.
That's probably more important --
Marjorie: There would be no Muslim world left after that.
Al: I will grant that, maybe, this makes some sense now.
I mean, we're talking $100 billion and who knows really how much.
Jeff: We're talking more people with nuclear weapons, that's the
big deal.
Al: Will you admit this though? That the original SDI --
Reagan's SDI plan, which was to stop 20,000 incoming missiles was insane.
Jeff: I think the idea of trying to stop 20,000 missiles was definitely
insane on some level.
But what it did is, the concept of it scared the Soviet Union so bad and
bankrupted them, we won the cold war.
Bill: But the point about this defensive system is that it has
to work 100% of the time.
Jeff: No.
Bill: No?
Jeff: No.
Bill: So if a few missiles got in and blew up a few cities, that's
okay?
Al: Deterrence.
Deterrence.
Skunk's right.
Jeff: I'm going with this guy.
Bill: Deterrence? But we already have the deterrent.
The deterrent is --
we'll kill you.
Jeff: If you launch an attack against China right now, all you're
doing is helping them with their housing shortage.
They don't care.
Bill: Of course they care.
Holland: There would be nothing left.
Jeff: Why would they threaten Los Angeles if they care? Why would
they say, "Aren't you willing to give up Los Angeles?"
Al: I don't actually remember them threatening Los Angeles.
When was this?
Jeff: It was 1996 during the --
Chen Shui-Bian's election in Taiwan.
Bill: Even the Spielberg movie "1941" --
remember where there were Japanese bombers coming over, and Dan Aykroyd
had to shoot them down? That was silly.
This is really silly.
The Chinese are not threatening Los Angeles or really anybody.
And these rogue states, they don't have the missiles.
What we need is a "briefcase on the subway" defense.
That's the nuclear weapon that might kill us.
Jeff: So when you go to sleep at night, you lock both the back
door and the front door, don't you? I agree, terrorism is something that's
very frightening.
You have to cover all your bases.
Holland: But if there's a major nuclear attack, there's nothing
to recover from.
Jeff: But against a minor nuclear attack, you can.
And what about an accidental launch?
Marjorie: Why are we so afraid of testing this technology and
putting it into development?
Bill: Testing it? We've spent $70 billion testing it.
Marjorie: No, but you're afraid of it.
Okay, and why not keep testing it and developing it?
Jeff: And it works.
It works.
Bill: Well, because it never worked.
Marjorie: No, that's not true.
[ Talking over each other ]
Al: My worry is Skunk.
That the --
let's say our system's working.
But let's say the North Vietnamese get a Skunk.
[ Laughter ]
You don't want a Skunk --
a Skunk falling in the wrong hands.
Jeff: No, absolutely not.
[ Talking over each other ]
Al: But I've got you to protect me.
Bill: You mean the North Koreans, Al.
Al: Uh?
Bill: The North Koreans are the ones threatening us, not the North
Vietnamese.
Al: Did I say North Koreans?
Bill: Yes, you said the North Vietnamese.
Al: Well, I meant the North Koreans.
Thank you for correcting me.
Bill: Thank you.
Al: It was a slip of the tongue.
I'm sorry.
Bill: I was just trying to help.
Al: Skunk knew what I was talking about.
[ Laughter ]
Holland: Do you remember "Fate of the Earth," by Jonathan
Schell?
Jeff: Say this again.
Holland: "Fate of the Earth" by Jonathan Schell, which
is a book that came out in the '70s right after we were first creating
this kind of plan, this kind of universal protection and defense and offense
system.
It would work globally.
And everybody came to the conclusion, at that time when that book was
very popular, that we were investing all the wealth of the world in a
system that, by its very nature, should not be used.
That was the offensive --
the offensive of nuclear attack.
If we have nuclear attack and in a grand scale, it's the end of everything.
[ Talking over each other ]
Jeff: We're talking about a small scale.
Holland: Who is gonna --
who's going to say, "You can send us three.
Send us three.
We can stop that.
Don't be sending us 20,000, then it's all over"?
Jeff: Quick story.
Four years ago, when the Norwegians launched a sounding rocket, which
was a weather rocket, the Russians thought that it was nuclear attack
against the Soviet Union.
Their missiles were ready to go.
We were seven minutes away.
Now, what --
there are mistakes being made all the time.
There's nuclear --
a lot of the nuclear missile technology that's proliferating around the
world.
These guys are spending so much money on nuclear weapons, they're not
spending money on what we call the "P.A.L.S." --
the permissive active links --
the security that it needs to secure these weapons.
That's one of the reasons why your point is true.
In the past, the United States and the Soviet Union trusted each other
that they would be responsible with the nuclear weapons.
Bill: It would have to work 100% of the time, which no weapon
has ever done.
It's like, again, a diaphragm that works 90% of the time --
useless.
You really want that diaphragm --
Jeff: Diaphragms don't work 100% of the time.
People do it because they are doing the best that they can.
And they don't not use it --
Bill: But the worst that happens is they get pregnant.
Jeff: --
It's better than nothing.
Bill: --
Happens, we all die.
Jeff: It's better than --
no, we all don't die.
If somebody launches ten missiles, and you get eight of them, what you've
done is you've probably saved about 30 million American lives.
I got no problem with this.
Bill: Good-bye San Diego and Chicago, but it was nice having you.
Al: You and I are going to be very --
[ Applause ]
Bill: I mean, that's really what you're saying.
Jeff: No.
Bill: I got to take a break.
I'm sorry, Al.
We gotta --
[ Cheers and applause ]
Bill: Well, the Dalai Lama visited the White House and President
Bush today.
And the Dalai Lama said to the president that he could teach him to find
a higher state of consciousness.
[ Light laughter ]
And then he talked to Bush for a few minutes, and he said, "You know
what? Let's just grab lunch."
[ Laughter ]
[ Applause ]
All right.
You know I dig the president.
Al: I know.
Bill: I love our president.
Al: He loves it.
No one laughs harder than Bush.
[ Laughter ]
Bill: Right, at himself.
He's very good at self-deprecating humor.
He ought to be.
Anyway, his tax cut is about to get passed.
He called Al Gore the perpetrator of fuzzy math during the election.
Remember that, a lot of fuzzy math? But a lot of people have said that
this $1.35 billion --
trillion-dollar tax cut --
that's really fuzzy math.
And that, really, by the time it all gets said and done, it's really worth
about $4 trillion.
And it's gonna sort of strangle the economy the way Reagan did with his
tax cut that took us 15 years to dig out of.
Anyone agree?
Al: I kind of agree.
And also, it's the shape of this.
I mean, almost --
like 41% or 43%, depending on the House and the Senate, of the tax cut
goes to the top 1%.
In the second debate, Bush said this --
speaking of fuzzy math --
he said --
this is a quote --
"A vast majority of my tax cut goes to those at the bottom.
By far, a vast majority of my cut --
" and the press didn't call him on it, because, you know, their attitude
was, "He doesn't know."
[ Laughter ]
You know, he doesn't know.
Bill: Exactly.
Marjorie: First of all --
Al: But this is important.
Why give --
according to the tax cut he proposed, Cheney and his wife would get a
$2 million tax cut.
Marjorie: How much do they pay in taxes?
Al: They pay 39.6%, which is what I pay, which is --
Marjorie: It's a lot of money.
And that's why they get the majority of the tax cut.
Those who make less than $30,000 with kids get an earned income tax credit,
which the Republicans increased last year.
Al: Which they fought tooth and nail.
Holland: Why should people who are making less than minimum wage
pay tax at all? If they want to cut it --
Marjorie: Say that they don't pay taxes --
[ Talking over each other ]
Al: That is so wrong.
Holland: If you make $5,000 a year, you pay taxes.
Marjorie: No, you don't.
Holland: That's just not true.
[ Talking over each other ]
Marjorie: You get it back from the irs.
You get it back.
Holland: That's what you're saying --
[ Talking over each other ]
Jeff: More Americans pay --
Marjorie: If you make $5,000 a year, you do not pay taxes in this
country.
Jeff: $35,000?
Marjorie: No, $5,000 is what --
[ Talking over each other ]
Bill: Really, $5,000?
Marjorie: This is why I'm correcting this.
Holland: At what point are you started to be taxed then? When
you pay --
Marjorie: I don't know the number.
The point is, there is an earned income tax credit.
[ Talking over each other ]
Al: Yeah, which every Republican fought tooth and nail --
Marjorie: You have to pay all --
[ bleep ].
That is not true.
Bill: No, no, no, that's not true.
I got to tell you, that's not true.
[ Talking over each other ]
Marjorie: Republicans passed it.
Republicans passed it.
Al: Listen, I don't take that kind of language from anybody, except
Skunk.
[ Laughter ]
Skunk, you can swear at me all you like, but not from some Republican
woman.
[ Laughter ]
Holland: If you make $20,000 year, I don't think you should pay
taxes.
Marjorie: You know, that is a very easy way --
Bill: There is a minimum for which you do not get taxed.
I remember, because I use --
Marjorie: --
Earned income tax credit --
you don't want to discuss it.
You don't want to discuss the fact that Republicans increased the earned
income tax credit.
Al: I believe that probably every Democrat voted for that.
Marjorie: I don't care.
The point is that is was passed by the Republicans.
Al: You don't care? Then why discuss then it if you don't care
what I'm saying?
Marjorie: Well, why don't you care the fact the Republicans --
Al: I do care.
Marjorie: --
Actually passed it.
Al: I actually responded to what you said.
Marjorie: Republicans passed it.
Bill: Okay, but the point is^--
\E
Al: Why, why, why? Again, since most people pay most of their
income taxes through the withholding tax.
And there is no cut in the withholding tax.
Why give a huge plurality of the tax cut to people who really don't need
it, especially when we have kids who aren't getting educated properly.
[ Cheers and applause ]
When we have --
when we have seniors who can't afford their medicine.
Why give that money to people who are doing great? You know, the economy
--
Marjorie: See, you're right.
We put more money into education and it's gotten better, is that your
premise?
Al: No, but we have schools that --
first of all --
Marjorie: No, but you said we're not educating our kids.
But we put more money into it and it's not working.
Al: Yeah, you know, like in Scarsdale, they put --
Bill: So wait.
[ Talking over each other ]
Bill: You're saying, if we put less money into education, that
would work?
[ Laughter ]
Marjorie: Pardon?
Bill: So you're saying, if we put less money --
Marjorie: Al here, apparently, wants to pay my taxes, because
it doesn't bother you.
But it bothers me, because I don't have a house.
I don't have kids.
I want some of my money back.
Bill: But you know what you're going to get back?
Marjorie: What?
Bill: Not enough to buy a house or kids.
Marjorie: I didn't say I was.
But the point is --
[ Light laughter ]
Al: Well, I mean, there are some cheap kids around.
Holland: How 'bout the fact that a family that has a $20,000 income
has to pay tax.
I think that's barely a subsistence living in a city in America today.
A family with a $20,000 --
[ Cheers and applause ]
Marjorie: It is unfortunate that you don't --
it is unfortunate that you refuse to take a look at the earned income
tax credit, which is money given back.
Al: Oh, get off the earned income tax credit.
Marjorie: Why?
[ Talking over each other ]
Democrats have beaten up Republicans about it, and we've done it.
And you keep --
Al: Because it's a red herring.
It's a red herring.
Bill: Right.
It's so easy to fool the American people, and here's a good example.
When they called it the estate tax, it had the support of a narrow majority.
When they called it the inheritance tax, it was more popular.
And when they called it the death tax, three-quarters supported it.
Just by changing the name, 20% of Americans think they'll pay it, 2% will.
Stupidity has a price.
I gotta take a break, we'll be right back.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Announcer: Join us tomorrow when our guests will be --
comedian Super Dave Osborne, "Three Sisters" star Katherine
Lanasa, from The New Animals, Eric Burdon and policy analyst Darlene Kennedy.
Bill: A poll here in California says three out of four Californians
think our state's energy crisis is very serious, and I think it's true.
Blackouts are getting worse.
The other night, it was so dark on one of the streets here that Robert
Blake went up to the wrong --
[ Light laughter ]
--
Went up to the wrong parked car and almost shot Hugh Grant's hooker.
[ Laughter ]
[ Cheers and applause ]
Jeff: Whoa.
Holland: Whoa.
Bill: It was just a little joke.
Come on.
Bill: Yeah.
Come on.
Al: Oh, my Lord, it's getting bad here.
Oh, my God.
Jeff: If I had a tie, I'd be doing what he's doing.
Whoo! Tough room.
Bill: Oh, it is.
It's very dark out there.
Jeff: Tough city.
Al: Yeah, dark.
Bill: Eddie Murphy picked up a real woman the other night.
Very dark.
[ Laughter ]
Dark on the streets, I'm tellin' you.
Speaking of a real woman, Janet Reno --
[ Laughter ]
You've heard the rumor? Not that one, but --
[ Laughter ]
She is thinking about running for the governorship of Florida, where she
is from.
She used to be the prosecutor there.
I say, great.
This was always my favorite person in the Clinton administration.
I used to say, the only one with real balls in that whole administration
--
[ Audience groans ]
--
And I just say, "Go Janet, go."
[ Scattered applause ]
Holland: It brings "West Wing" to mind.
Bill: It brings what?
Holland: It brings "West Wing" to mind.
Bill: Why?
Holland: Because I thought --
I thought Miss Reno was not well.
I thought she was publicly known as being unwell.
Bill: Oh, right, he has MS on "West Wing." Yeah, but
she does have Parkinson's, but it does not affect the cognitive process.
The pope has it, Michael J. Fox has it.
It affects your hands.
She said --
she already addressed it --
she said, "Yeah, I'll shake." She said, "My hand shakes."
Al: Actually, people admire her for that.
I mean, she's someone with a disability who --
and she's, you know, she's a tough person who makes decisions, and if
you --
you may agree with them or you may not agree with them, but I think she's
to be admired.
Now, there's parts of Miami --
the Cuban community --
where she'd have better luck in Waco.
[ Laughter ]
But I think she'd be a strong candidate for it.
Bill: Right, and I think in both Waco and in the Elian Gonzalez
situation, she was right, and she acted with guts and not according to
the political whims.
Al: And she took responsibility.
Holland: Yeah, she's strong.
Bill: Yes, she is.
Holland: Immediately, too.
Yeah.
Bill: She is strong, and she believes in her convictions that
she goes for, and she doesn't care what anybody says.
We need more like her.
Marjorie: But taking a look at the Elian case --
[ Applause ]
--
Whether you agree or disagree with her, wouldn't you contend that that
is kind of a bad place to run for governor after --
Bill: Well, it's her home state.
Marjorie: I know, I know, which doesn't matter.
Bill: You can't run for a state you're not from in this --
oh, wait.
Marjorie: Oh, yes, you can.
[ Laughter ]
Al: Cuban Americans in South Florida are Republican by and large
anyway, and Hispanics --
Gore won among Hispanics because noncuban-American Hispanics tend to be
Democratic and like Gore and I think they'd like Reno.
Jeff: Well, one thing about Janet Reno, I agree with Al, which
I'm doing way too much tonight, Al.
This is great.
But I --
Al: Me and Skunk.
Jeff: We're like this.
But I agree with that she makes tough decisions.
My problem with her is that she makes tough decisions that may not be
correct.
I think her support of some of the things that the Clinton administration
did was not right, and I think that as attorney general, she had a duty
to be a little bit more balanced in her outlook.
Marjorie: Such as on the campaign finance investigation.
Jeff: That thing really --
that one thing --
Al: Oh, give me a break.
[ Talking over each other ]
Marjorie: --
With the FBI and her top prosecutors wanted to investigate.
Bill: I gotta do my duty and take a little break.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Bill: All right.
Politics make strange bedfellows.
I don't have to tell you, Al.
Tomorrow, Super Dave Osborne, Katherine LaNasa, Eric Burdon --
The Animals, remember them? --
And Darlene Kennedy.
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